Promix HP (High Porosity) is a popular choice for seedlings as it is very dry. No, all 209 primers areNot the same and cannot be substituted willy-nilly. You practice until you cant get it wrong. Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos, Vintage Boxes - Gear, Shell, Case, Primer, Group Buys Design, Active , Waiting and Archives, Closed Buys/Waiting for delivery/in shipment, If this is your first visit, be sure to I know most of you guys don't reload fire hulls, but if you do, something to think about. It is a challenge to keep up: we got American Size and Euro size BUT, Cheddites are . Right now, I'm set up for loading fiocchis with BP SG16 wads, but BP had some cheddites in stock (surprisingly) so I figured I'd give them a shot. Are the Cheddite and Fiocchi hulls interchangeable for reloading purposes. By collecting seeds from your own garden or buying them in bulk, you can save money on future purchases. Are they Cheddites? Which Teeth Are Normally Considered Anodontia. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. Pick 'Internet Options' from the tools menu. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. I've also heard better longevity out of the cheddites vs fiocchis. A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. They load as well as just about any of the eurotrash hulls. I'm planning to follow the usual practices when approaching this sort of thing - reduce load by 10%, chronograph to monitor for velocity spikes, etc - but I'd be interested to hear if anybody has compared the two in 16 or other gauges. John, It was 18grns Clays and a Chedite primer. Fiocchi VS Cheddite 28ga hull capacities. 2022 - 2023 Times Mojo - All Rights Reserved I am thinking that the Fiocchi will fall between the RIO and the Cheddite, but that is a guess on my part. Pardon my ignorance, but does anyone know if the capacities of the two hulls are the same? Finish by hitting 'Yes' and 'OK' on the remaining windows that are open. This can be caused by having too high of a security level set in Internet Explorer. #9 shot, Ballistic Products Piston Skeet wad, Promo powder, and Win or Fiochhi primers. In order to login you must be registered. You dont practice until you get it right. In practice there is very little difference, especially with target/light field loads. The most recent are straight wall with low plastic base wad. It appears that this patent is exclusive to the Russian Federation, with exporting to Belarus and K-stan and importing from Germany being allowed. Cheddite has put its name to a complete line of cartridges that have been adapted for the discipline and that have been carefully designed down to the smallest detail to obtain consistency and to maximize ballistic performance. Additionally, by selecting varieties that are well-suited for your climate and soil type, you can increase the chances of success with each planting season. These are the largest volume Rio's I have. To echo Republican, even Eley are using Fiocchi cases for .410 now. Once quoted shipping, you may still decide to cancel the order. Are the Fiocchis a tapered shell too? If I load them twice, I will sometimes use an oversized primer for the second loading instead of the Federal 209A. The most recent are straight wall with low plastic base wad. check out the. If you have BPI Advantages, theres really no need to sub almost since they test most loads with both hulls. Nice light load for 16's. Only a few types of hulls are desireable for reloading, however. Yes, they have the same head stamp but when I cut them in half the base wad is I bit different. Crow Shooting Supply The Worlds Leading Source of Wholesale Ammunition and Reloading Components is proud to announce it has been named an official, direct U.S. supplier, of Cheddite Frances line of shotgun primers and primed cases. When I use up all the wads I'll shoot them then dump them and go back to AA hulls. This item cannot ship via USPS; when checking out, the Cheddite has put its name to a complete line of cartridges that have been adapted for the discipline and that have been carefully designed down to the smallest detail to obtain consistency and to maximize ballistic performance. Furthermore, if you're growing heirloom varieties or rare species that may not, Protect Your Garden Against Leaf Issues with Organic Solutions and Preventative Practices, Leaf issues in the garden can be caused by a variety of factors, from pests to environmental conditions. Depending on what gauge though, the cheddite can be larger. Depending on what gauge though, the cheddite can be larger. I have a large number of the light purple fiocchi hulls and am thinking about reloading some of them for 1 oz. First off, unless the Federal hulls were sitting in water and you reloaded them, your misfires were caused by something else. If you have BPI Advantages, there's really no need to sub almost since they test most loads with both hulls. From Dave in AZ's nice comparison of most of the 28ga case capacities, the RIO had the largest capacity. The chart basically gives general dimensions. Fiocchi 616 primer + 17.5 gr. RIO, (Maxam) is a totally vertically integrated company meaning they make every component that goes into their shotgun ammo from hull to primer, to powder, to wad to shot. Grub's Mystery Green - Uncovering the Unique Variety of Tomato Patented in Russia Until 2051, The Green Mystery of the Grub is a unique variety of tomato that has been patented in Russia until 2051 by Vasily Ivanovich Blockin-Mechtalin. Virtually ANY hull CAN be reloaded; some far more sucessfully than others. They are very close. What!? I've loaded some of them 5-6 times and they hold up really well. Not to muddy the waters here but the 20 ga. Cheddite / Herters hulls I have, have, a smaller primer pocket than the yellow ribbed Rios. Loaded Ammo Cannot be shipped to the following states: Alaska, ammunition. Home | About | Contact | Copyright | Report Content | Privacy | Cookie Policy | Terms & Conditions | Sitemap. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. If you have the spreadsheets from the old Yahoo 16 gauge site (now on 24 Hr Campfire) - you will have plenty of data. Jun 15, 2020. . Which is more versatile? I would personally have no problem going from Fiocchi data to Cheddite data because I do not think there are many, possibly any, Cheddite hulls that are smaller than the Fiocchi, but to go the other way around could get you into trouble. This could be quite problomatic in a semi auto. JavaScript is disabled. Rio and new Fed hull produced by Rio are essentially the same capacity, within 2 pellets and 4 drops of water, as close as I could measure. Primers will vary probably lot to lot. I have used Fiocchi data as well as cheddite data in successfully loading cheddite hulls, Nobelsport hulls, and rio hulls. Oct 13, 2021 I just did exactly that. As far as the primer tool . Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. After years of research Cheddite has reached a level of excellence in ballistic performance by focusing its attention on a careful selection of powders, as the Drago, the Aquila, the Granular, that perform consistently in all climatic conditions; a special system that allows the maximization of the number of lead shots for every load without varying the number between one cartridge and another; and on dose tuning in order to maximize speed and minimize recoil. primer in the Rio hull but not so with the Cheddite. Ok this begs the question, what about 28ga? Passwords are case sensitive. The Cheddite hull was 2nd place. Plastic hulls can go from a couple of times, sometimes, but not always, to as many as five or six before they get both dirty and ragged looking. $24.00 UPS Hazmat Fee, $29.00 Fedex Hazmat Fee (. In particular, Cheddite has reconciled cartridge aesthetics with optimum performance by matching particular leads with different antimony contents to different coloured shells. It's a site that collects all the most frequently asked questions and answers, so you don't have to spend hours on searching anywhere else. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Cheddite's I measured .244/.243. JavaScript is disabled. The correct answer is no, you cant sub hulls. An old Connecticut Ag Experiment, Growing Tomatoes from Saved Seed: Tips to Achieve Maximum Germination Rate, Seed Saving: Tips for Ensuring Maximum Germination Rate However, when potting the seedlings into Promix, they need less water than before. handling fee. Technically, you should use the correct loading data for each hull. What are the best shotgun hulls to reload? I don't know if it's because of the copper coating slides better on the stainless feed plate, but they definitely work better. Please ensure you read any forum rules as you navigate around the board. Russet mites are a type of pest that can cause damage to leaves, stems, and petioles. They do work, but for hunting loads I only get one loading. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The Cheddite ones don't precrimp as tight as the Fiocchi ones for the same setting. After enough load study of loads SIMILAR to what you're looking at, that is powder, powder amount, and payload weight (and similar primer), you can make your own call if YOU want to do it. My large volume Rio hulls came from a flat of 7.5 1oz, and 7/8 oz 8s. Stick around and find out.Watch our solution for the loose primer pockets of Euro Hulls.https://youtu.be/9hqvzQTpVjEcheck out our playlist for the complete list of hulls we have tried so farhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMWCwuQeyEwhZdK_MYdnfv3AArI9qQQR4Catch us at our new site - The Reloaders Network!https://thereloadersnetwork.com/author/mannyca/********YouTube is blocking Nationalism and Americana content, if you like this video, cut and paste the address to others to get the word out. Service. If this message persists, please contact us. This may take a few minutes. In this series we review just how many times reloading shotgun hulls is too many. One is the same size as a standard US type 209. We also discuss how to identify the cause and the best treatments for each type of pest. Nov 20, 2017. The standards setting and IP regimes in Russia are open to some manipulation, as evidenced by last y, Starting Seeds with Cactus Mix: Challenges and Tips for Optimal Results, Using cactus mix for seed starting is an interesting idea, but it has its own set of challenges. Cheddite primers are slightly larger in diameter than are the Federal, and every other American made primer. The "correct answer" is no, you can't sub hulls. Depending on what gauge though, the cheddite can be larger. Cheddite or Fiocchi? STS hull previously loaded twice with Fiocchi 616. No, they are not. We never recommend substituting primers, however if you choose to use a Cheddite primers in lieu of the Winchester you will probably see less pressure and velocity as the Cheddite primer is a cooler primer than the Winchester. pactice ammo. There are two types of Fiocchi hulls that I have seen. They were trying to convince me it was the Stars, and had to be cheddite hulls. Via della Valle Benedetta, 101 57124 Livorno, 2023 Cheddite These load like cheddite hulls. I'm not really into subbing if I do it maybe in the wad department not hulls. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. There are 2 different primer diameters in those hulls. Hulls 17 Items Cheddite 20 Ga. 3" Primed, Skived, 16mm High Metal Head Hull (Qty 100) Permanent Link to Product Page $23.99 In Stock Product Number: 1392076C CH203GA Product Manufacturer: Cheddite Cheddite Product Description: Colors may vary from photo. I sold most of them but kept enough to use up the wads he had for them. Another example of this was several years ago I bought new primed 28 ga Cheddite hulls but found very little data for loading. Many "eurotrash" hulls are called Cheddite hulls, but I'm not convinced. I've found all of the Euro hulls have poorer quality plastic, and their heads are much more prone to rust than Federal. JavaScript is disabled. They all LOOK the same except the plastic color and the head stamping. A few of us have had problems with the newer fiochi hulls, separation, bulging when crimped and such. This patent covers not only the Grub's Mystery Green, but also Brads Atomic Grape and Barrys Crazy Cherry. Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited, By accessing or using this Site, you agree to be bound by the terms and conditions as stated in the GobblerNation.com Rules & Terms. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=430166&p=3484902#p3484902. The "correct answer" is no, you can't sub hulls. I load 1 oz. They are very close. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. There is some data out there for loads using the Cheddite primer. Since there's separate loading data for Cheddite and Fiocchi 16 gauge hulls, I just follow the recipes. Another so-called \"Euro-Trash Video? Click on the 'Security' tab inside the 'Internet Options' box that popped up. All international orders are required to be paid by Yes, they have the same head stamp but when I cut them in half the base wad is I bit different. That being Remington STS ( which is the most preferred hull for loading ,the the Win. Humid conditions will not be the cause of the misfires. Ed Mrmetalweld57, Aug 24, 2022 #17 Larry Mega Poster Founding Member I can put a win 209 and fed 209 into a fiocchi 1x fired hull no problem. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. There is some data out there for these hulls. I can thumb seat a Win. They have a reputation for head separation lately locally which is a great shame as they are a classic .410 load I think. There is some data out there for these hulls. Check your local laws before ordering. They are very close. It turns out that pure sand can also be used for seed starting. Herters, Kent and Hevi are convincingly the same hull. Maybe. Fiocchi makes a great factory shell, but they best thing to reload with them with is a garbage can. These load like cheddite hulls. Yes, they are the same diameter as Winchesters. Believe what you wish. A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. They all have a darker red plastic than Fiocchi and Herters, I could sort them by color pretty east. Shotshell, Reloading, Ballistics, & Chokes, https://pipesf16.wordpress.com/12-ga-2-75-hull-volumes/. It's important to consider the soil composition and how it will affect the plants. You must be 21 years or older to order Second Media Corp., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. primer in the Rio hull but not so with the Cheddite. There are two types of Fiocchi hulls that I have seen. Maybe the Cheddite ones weren't actually skivved. Kemen, Diana, Centurian are Cheddite hulls too. I also have a few hundred Fiocchi hulls and they vary in volume but about half are the same volume of the Fiocchi stamped Rio 1oz loads. This subsidiary of the Spanish explosives firm MAXAM is a member of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI). I have seen at least two variations of the Fiocchi hull. In this series we review just how many times reloading shotgun hulls is too many. I came into several thousand of the light purple hulls already deprimed and sized from my brother in law when he became disabled. Just wondering of others see the same thing. Some hulls cheddite primers are a good fit. Surprising results for many hulls, and I included all those the OP asked about. No additional charges apply. I haven't run across any different volume Cheddites, I've just heard of them. Incorrect username or password. Automated site maintenance is running. I've heard their interchangeability alluded to in forum posts but never explicitly said outright. I've loaded thousands of them without a hitch. Privacy & Cookie Policy Privacy & Cookie Policy. They have brass heads and durable plastic cases that last for quite a few reloads. I would say, get the cheddite hulls. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Fiocchi VS Cheddite 28ga hull capacities. You can reload others but you will just have to find out what works for you . 243, and when measuring different primers, the Cheddites were the most consistent in size. I would personally have no problem going from Fiocchi data to Cheddite data because I do not think there are many, possibly any, Cheddite hulls that are smaller than the Fiocchi, but to go the other way around could get you into trouble. Cheddite produces high quality hulls of all gauges and lengths for manufacturing clients all over the world. Due to Fiochi hulls are not cheddites. From a load recipe standpoint, is there any functional difference between these two hulls? . Nobel Sport/Cheddite wads are specifically designed for use with with all straight-walled shotshells, such as Cheddite, Fiocchi, and Rio. You will be contacted with freight pricing details once you submit your order and our representative has a chance to review it. They are however very close. The Cheddite hulls that I have are little larger than the Fiochhi hulls that I have. The Fiocchis are great hulls to reload, and there is no reason not to reload them. Rio is one of them. They are translucent clear or dark blue. Can you use Cheddite primers in Winchester hulls? California,Hawaii, Illinois, Massachusetts or New York. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Actually I have 3 flats of Rio hulls and all of my Rio hulls have the same volume as the Cheddites except for a flat of Rio #7.5 1oz shot that has Fiocchi stamped on the bottom of the hull. In this article, we explore the possibility of russet mites, thrips, spider mites, and other causes of leaf damage. Winchester AA and Remington STS hulls are the two most common, highest-quality hulls for reloading available today. AA and the Federal premium hulls. A forum community dedicated to Trap shooting enthusiasts. Click 'Enable' under the 'Active Scripting' section and hit 'OK'. A phone call to Alliant put me in touch with someone on their technical department who simply advised me to use the loading data for Federal hulls. regular 209 hulls work fine in Cheddite, just came in from sizing and priming a hundred for more buckshot. I'm gonna be hard pressed to go back to winchesters. Have a good day, Frank Save Anyone know? shipping carrier must be UPS, FedEx, or SpeeDee ground service only. Seed saving is a great way to ensure the survival of your plants, and it's also an economical choice. Jan 28, 2022. It affects the plastic base wad. Are these really as bad as their predecessors? Your browser has JavaScript disabled. some cleaning solvents are restricted from shipping by United States Postal Do Men Still Wear Button Holes At Weddings? Fiocchi 12ga 2.75 16mm clear UNskived (bag/100) Item #: 0641216US In Stock $18.79 . Yes, they have the same head stamp but when I cut them in half the base wad is I bit different. Not to muddy the waters here but the 20 ga. Cheddite / Herters hulls I have, have, a smaller primer pocket than the yellow ribbed Rios. Click the 'Tools' menu (if the Tools menu isn't there, hit the ALT key to turn on the toolbar). They are translucent clear or dark blue. Come join the discussion about targets, clays, hunting, gunsmithing, gear reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Home/ Shotshell Reloading/Hulls/New Hulls By Brand/Fiocchi hulls Primed hulls do not require a hazmat fee with standard ground shipping. EMMY NOMINATIONS 2022: Outstanding Limited Or Anthology Series, EMMY NOMINATIONS 2022: Outstanding Lead Actress In A Comedy Series, EMMY NOMINATIONS 2022: Outstanding Supporting Actor In A Comedy Series, EMMY NOMINATIONS 2022: Outstanding Lead Actress In A Limited Or Anthology Series Or Movie, EMMY NOMINATIONS 2022: Outstanding Lead Actor In A Limited Or Anthology Series Or Movie. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. That's right, we go through and demystify another maligned ammunition source for hunters, shooters and enthusiasts world wide. Registering takes only a few moments but gives you increased capabilities. I wrote it all up at the link above with comments on FGM, cheddite, etc. Many other bargain brands appear to be Cheddites at a glance but have thinner heads, thinner walls, and inferior plastic quality. Secondly, there is no one that can substantiate a loose basewad in a 16 Gauge Federal hull. The Cheddite hull was 2nd place. Not going to argue with you. Primed with dependable and powerful Cheddite primers ensures top ballistic performance. The board administrator may also grant additional permissions to registered users. Head stamp is just 4 stars, like a cheddite. Have read on here where people sub these 2 but after I check them both out there are little difference. The other is a few thousandths larger and can enlarge the primer pockets. I have seen at least two variations of the Fiocchi hull. $15.99. I was looking in the BPI Advantages Manuel and noticed two loads with the exact same internals but the hulls were Fiocchi and Cheddite, They both had the same pressures. Suggest you use a european primer like the Fiocchi, Rio or Noble sport. What!? Cheddites may be a tad larger than most American primers but they ARE NOT really Euro size. Several different brand names are all manufactured by Cheddite. Generally speaking, paper hulls can be reloaded twice with target type reloads before they pin hole. Watering every day with just a teaspoon or two works well. If you have a source for the Winchester shells, just buy the 16 gauge and save then for reloading. These are reliable straight-wall hulls; extremely versatile for almost all load types. Are Cheddite and Winchester 209 primers interchangeable? How many times can a shotshells be reloaded? Also member of FTA,CBA, Parker's , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines, "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list.". *********---------The Ministry of Truth (YOUTUBE) HAVE LISTED THIS VIDEO AS INAPPROPRIATE - TO KEEP THIS CHANNEL ALIVE YOU MUST SHARE THE LINKS WITH LIKE MINDED GUN OWNERS/SHOOTERS/AMERICANS----------- The federal purple hulls seem to be slightly undersized from the European hulls but not by much at all. Red Dot with a CB SO clone and 1 oz. YMMV. #8's makes a great 16 yd. Click on the 'Custom Settings' button. Why Do Cross Country Runners Have Skinny Legs? With this email, you will receive detail on payment methods. Are Cheddite and Winchester primers interchangeable? There a couple of different Cheddite primers out there. Since there's separate loading data for Cheddite and Fiocchi 16 gauge hulls, I just follow the recipes. (1-800-223-0900), Powders and primers require a hazardous material (HAZMAT) Enjoy, Dave. Are Rio and Cheddite the same? If you have BPI Advantages, there's really no need to sub almost since they test most loads with both hulls. Before you register please ensure you are familiar with our terms of use and related policies. They are the same. If shells were primed with Fiocchi primers, then you want Rio, Fiocchi, or Noblesport. They are stamped, diameters are out of round, etc. Come join the discussion about safety, gear, tips, tricks, optics, hunting, gunsmithing, reviews, reports, accessories, classifieds, and more! 20 ga. Cheddite / Herters hulls I have, have, a smaller primer pocket than the yellow ribbed Rios. They are stepped like the Winchesters also . I suspect that the entire (loaded) factory Rio/Maxam .410 shotshell is a Fiocchi product. Cheddite hulls from BPI seem to be of fairly good quality. I do got 2 loads one a ched hull and one a fio hull and they take the exact same data for a 1 ounce load. The latest technologies and strict quality control standards used during the manufacturing process make the Cheddite cases particularly suitable for today's accurate handloading. They are cheddites. I believe there is much more hull volume variation in Fiocchi hulls than in Cheddite hulls. 240-. Fiocchi 12ga 2.75 16mm clear hull (bag/100) Item #: 064121600 Check for Availability. They are the same. Another so-called "Euro-Trash Video? They are straight walled. The primer pockets tend to loosen after the first firing or two. The cheddites actually feed better in my Dillon presses than the winchesters. I measured Cheddite to be .025 same as win209. The final difference is the cheddite primer is the biggest of the European primers. Cheddite and Fiocchi are made be different companies, but are essentially the same design. The roll crimp area is more squared off. What Are Russet Mites? I can thumb seat a Win. Symptoms include bronzing on stems and petioles, curling and drying up of leave, This website uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our. Not sure what their respective capacities are. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. As was brought up a bit ago, E dimension. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! It never touches the metal. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. What's the meaning of this! Your assumptions are correct. The final crimp also looks better on the Fiocchi ones. Here's how to check: In other web browsers (besides Internet Explorer) Plug-ins like NoScript or other special settings could cause this as well. You have an item which weighs more than 70 lbs in your cart and will need to be shipped via freight. Life Member of NRA,NTA,DAV ,ITA. load. They are translucent clear or dark blue. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. You could call BPI or one of the powder Co. for advise if your loads are on the high end of pressure curve. Western Union Money Order or Bank to Bank Wire Transfer. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. On the cheddite, I have to use another euro primer. TimesMojo is a social question-and-answer website where you can get all the answers to your questions. Available in 7/8, 1, and 1 1/8 ounce versions, Nobel Sport wads are optimal in a myriad of target . It just doesn't happen. Are Fiocchi and Cheddite hulls interchangeable? These load like cheddite hulls. UPEgger 24825 UPEgger 24825 PostOct 12, 2019#12019-10-12T00:45 From Dave in AZ's nice comparison of most of the 28ga case capacities, the RIO had the largest capacity. Straightwall in all colors. As Dave did not have any Fiocchi's they were not included in the comparison. As far as I now these three really are Euro size. Some hulls they will fall out. There are two types of Fiocchi hulls that I have seen. They are reloadable, but I do not load them more than twice. A forum community dedicated to duck hunters and hunting enthusiasts. The outside diameter of the Fiocchi primer is a bit larger than the standard 209 primer and the Cheddite (or standard 209) primer will sometimes blow out of the base of the hull. BPI is proud to carry Nobel Sport/Cheddite target wads in our line of high performance shotshell components. Republican. They load as well as just about any of the eurotrash hulls. Rio Ammunition, Inc. Rio Ammunition manufactures shotgun shells at a factory in Marshall, Texas. Department of Transportation restrictions, ammo, aerosols, primed hulls, lithium batteries, and The general rule is premium hulls are the best. Back to top Hootch Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:25 pm JavaScript is disabled. As Dave did not have any Fiocchi's they were not included in the comparison. RC, Eley, Hull, Saga, Clever, Diana, Gamebore, Fiocchi. Are Fiocchi and Cheddite hulls interchangeable? To view this site, you'll need to turn it on in your browser settings. There have been a couple threads on this and the fact that new Rio hulls over the past year or so are head-stamped with the traditional Cheddite 12 and stars.
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